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Interview starts at the 22:37 mark

JEREMY MAGGS: Amnesty International in South Africa, welcoming an arrest warrants decision for the Israeli prime minister [Benjamin Netanyahu] and his defence minister [Yoav Gallant], as well as two leaders of Hamas. South Africa’s executive director, Shenilla Mohamed, joins us now. Firstly then, how significant is this move?

SHENILLA MOHAMED: Well, afternoon, Jeremy. This is a crucial step towards justice as it sends an important message to all parties in the conflict in Gaza and beyond that they’ll be held accountable for the devastation they’ve waged on the peoples of Gaza and Israel. I think, Jeremy, the other really important point about this actual development is that it really is a very clear message that no one is above international law.

No leaders of armed groups, no government officials, no military officials, regardless of the cause they’re pursuing, no one is above the law.

JEREMY MAGGS: Let me suggest to you that it has huge symbolic importance, but it’s unlikely, surely, that it will be acted upon because of the difficulty in securing the arrests.

SHENILLA MOHAMED: Absolutely. It’s not impossible, we have seen people being brought before the ICC [International Criminal Court] before, but I do think this will be a lot more difficult, just given the circumstances. However, what it is pointing to is that this is now in a way a long-awaited opportunity to end the decades-long cycle of impunity.

So in the past we did not see the ICC asking for warrants of arrest for anybody involved in the Palestine-Israel, Occupied Territories conflict. Now that has changed and I think it is a significant development …

Even though, as you rightly say, the execution of it may not be as easy as it may seem just because of the complexity of the fact that Israel is not a signatory to the ICC, but then Hamas as well is not a government, they are an armed military group. So there are some complications there.

JEREMY MAGGS: Execution is one thing, but one could also ask about the timing. The conflict itself is months old. It’s taken an inordinately long time for this process to be activated.

SHENILLA MOHAMED: Well, absolutely, Jeremy, and I think it’s absolutely horrendous that over 30 000-plus people have had to die before the ICC prosecutor even took a step like this. I think that, again, Amnesty in the past has really called out the ICC for being slow, for not really taking action when required.

There’s definitely a need for reform of some of these international institutions, particularly the ICC, for them to operate more efficiently, but also for us to be able to see action much quicker than we are seeing now.

But unfortunately, they’re all that we have at the moment until reform takes place. I think even though it’s late, I think we would argue that better late than ever.

JEREMY MAGGS: What the issuance of these arrest warrants means is that the parties named have been put on notice one way or another. Might this have any impact on the conflict itself between Israel and Hamas? Could it draw attention? Could it slow things down? Could it enable a little bit more reflection or do you think that’s simply wishful thinking?

SHENILLA MOHAMED: Well, I think there are a number of factors that are collating at the moment. I think you’ve now seen today three major countries recognising Palestine as a state and I think that we are seeing a number of developments happening.

But will it stop the killing that is taking place, I would argue no, I don’t think that.

Again, it’s not that a warrant of arrest has actually been given it’s just that the ICC has applied for warrants of arrest and now the Pre-Trial Chamber still has to review this application and decide whether or not it’s going to issue these arrest warrants.

So again, the warrants haven’t been issued yet.

But in answer to your question, it’s not going to have a huge impact on actually what’s happening because at the moment, what’s happening in the Occupied Territories or Israel. I think the Israeli government has been very clear that this has no impact. They don’t believe in it. It’s not going to affect them in any way. I think the US has also been very clear that they don’t accept this. So I think the reality on the ground is that the killings will continue.

JEREMY MAGGS: And just finally, it might be precedent setting though, as far as the ICC is concerned, could it influence the future in one way or another of international justice and war crimes and crimes against humanity, given that the ICC now has indicated that it has a propensity to act, albeit late?

SHENILLA MOHAMED Yes, we have welcomed it. We definitely see it as a step in the right direction for the ICC in particular and I think it definitely has and will set a precedent. Karim Khan himself, when he was being interviewed by CNN, said that in the past the ICC and, in fact, he was told by some northern governments that the ICC was only for African leaders and [Vladimir] Putin.

I think that this step will actually go a long way to taking away that perception that this is not for northern leaders.

I think, again, yes, Netanyahu and his defence minister, plus the Hamas leaders, is a step in the right direction. But we have still yet to see a major, like America or anybody, come to the ICC, but I think this is a good step to diffusing that perception that the ICC is unfair, that it only targets Africans and people who the US and the Europeans don’t like.

JEREMY MAGGS: Shenilla Mohamed from Amnesty, thank you very much indeed for talking to me today.